hygiene and hair and the reasons behind one's actions

[malka]

I'm of a generation where girls, starting at some point in (pre?)adolescence, were supposed to shave their armpits and legs, but where mons and vulva shaving was not considered.

I remember discussing armpit shaving in the geek summer camp cafeteria at one point. All of us were roughly 14 or 15. One girl argued that it's just more hygienic that way, and didn't have a good answer to my question of whether boys should be doing it. Since then, I've repeatedly seen bodily shaving referred to as a hygiene issue. Occasionally people will describe it as a hygiene issue for both sexes, but often it's just for women/girls.

I think shaving-for-hygiene is just the same sort of social delusion (?) or polite fiction (?) that wearing-shoes-for-hygiene is. I don't actually know whether shaved armpits interact with sweat better than unshaved armpits, but there's an area of my body that is far more deserving of hygiene-inspired shaving: my scalp. I have thick, oily, slightly dandruffy hair, which I usually wear long. It is easy for me to build up skin flakes, or oil, or (especially in the summer) sweat on my scalp and the first inch or so of my hair. It itches. It probably smells bad (there are obvious mechanical obstacles to me smelling my own scalp), at least when I've just been exercising. It looks grungy. It's been hard to get lice out of on the occasions when I've gotten lice.

And yet, nobody has ever suggested that I shave my scalp in the name of hygiene. Not even when I was trying to transition to a low-shampoo lifestyle while biking everywhere.

Armpit shaving is absolutely part of expected grooming for women in my current culture. It's not hygiene-driven, though. Nor is leg shaving (which, to be fair, many people don't even try to argue).

I have vague thoughts about why hygiene and grooming are lumped together like this, but they haven't gelled yet.

(Oh, and to be clear, I have no problem with other people's grooming choices, as long as they're not expecting my choices to be the same as theirs. Your body (follicles, pores, skin evenness, etc.), your choice.)

Comments

[cereta]

You know, I started to type that I'm a pretty dedicated shaver*, and even I know that hair in the armpit has nothing to do with cleanliness and smell. Then I realized that despite knowing this intellectually and even having it reinforced through a years long issue of chronic hidradenitis culminating in surgery there (which took a dog's age to heal and thus meant I couldn't shave), I still sort of instinctively think I smell more when I have hair.

Wow, that was all one sentence, wasn't it?

Anyway, yes, it's been ingrained, hasn't it?

*Well, of my legs; my pits are kind of dependent on weather and outfit, and I too am of the generation that didn't learn to shave mons and vulva (or at least I think I am; maybe it's just that my mom was, and I have sparse enough body hair that I never worried about it).

[malka]

It's really part of the cultural narrative. I think it's also being applied to pubic-area shaving, although I'm less clear on that.

I think the generation where mons/vulva shaving is a solid option started in the mid-eighties, so if you're older than about twenty-seven, it's not expected of you. I also don't think it's as black-and-white as armpit and leg shaving, at least not yet. I have very limited information here, though.

(I had to look up "hidradenitis". Thank you for the new word, but I'm sorry that happened to you.)

[aquaeri]

I also wanted to extend sympathies, what an unpleasant condition to have to put up with!

And yeah, so, so culturally ingrained.

Possibly TMI

[aquaeri]

I've not directly heard the "shaving is more hygenic" argument, but I know it's floating around out there. To me, the shaving armpits/legs etc (and removing visible facial hair) is obviously about creating/enhancing visible differences between men and women, with, as per usual, most of the work going to the women.

I personally find the mons/vulva hair removal stuff a teensy bit creepy because adult women have hair there whereas prepubescent girls don't. But I should really apply the same standard to armpits, right?

I shave my armpits, but on a "slow" schedule in comparison to most women around me, i.e. I allow the hair to grow to about half a cm between times even when it's likely to be visible (winter less often). I don't remove hair from my legs, because every time I try, I get a rash, and having hairless legs for half a day isn't worth the trade-off of ingrown lumps and red rash for weeks afterwards. Similarly, I tried trimming just the pubic hair outside my swimsuit - more rash and ingrowns. I'm more and more curious why my body is okay with me shaving my pits.

Re: Possibly TMI

[malka]

Bodies are niftily different from each other. (I don't have shaving experience, but sad deodorant experience leads me to believe that my legs are more willing to put up with stuff than my armpits are. I will try to send your legs encouraging messages of strength from my legs.)

I definitely agree with you on gender differentiation being one of shaving's purposes. It bugs me, though, even without the asymmetry -- why is societal gender differentiation[1] so important? Why is it so threatening if individuals cross the semiarbitrary lines?

[1] I don't have the right term here, but I'm trying to distinguish between "Person A, who is a woman, shaves her legs" and "All women should shave their legs." I understand why person A might find any number of gendered behaviors appropriate for Aself. I dislike people A-Z lining up to tell me what gendered behaviors I should have in myself, even when those are behaviors that I personally find appropriate for malkaself.

Re: Possibly TMI

[aquaeri]

The gender differentiation thing fascinates me too. I think there's a bunch of contributing factors - people want things simple, they don't want to have to ask which pronoun (how embarrassing!!!) and I'm beginning to suspect that things like feminism and LGBT rights (or at least recognition) are leaving a lot of people unsettled - yes, it's unfair if women can't vote or have access to the same jobs as men, but gosh, how are we going to tell them apart now?

And our society definitely thinks it's very, very important that they can always be told apart. From my point of view, that's a mostly arbitrary rule, and I'm always intrigued that there's all these formal/social rules about women vs men and then there aren't for say, left-handers vs right-handers. (Most righties have no clue how often being a leftie can have an impact on your life - we even have a decreased life expectancy, I suspect because in a world designed for righties, we're more likely to get things wrong.)

(As a biologist, I think 99.99% of the "but reproduction is soooooo important" arguments are bullsh!t. I should maybe write a post about it, because I've been thinking about along these lines, particularly biological sex vs gender.)

Re: Possibly TMI

[malka]

There's this weird doublethink going with gender roles: they're innate, which is why we need to enforce them. *shakes head in confusion* I think your "unsettled" explanation is a particularly good explanation for some of the recent (this decade) changes I've seen.

Do you know if the decreased life expectancy for lefties figures are from the time when left-handedness was seen as evil? It seems like the stress and reduced life opportunities from that would take a toll on people as well. (In addition to tools and workspaces and workflows being set up to assume right-handedness, I mean.)

The reproduction = most important argument usually seems to be phrased in terms of sex = most important, which is also grr-inducing. We don't just lay eggs and walk away. We spend decades raising young!

(I would love to read your post, if you get around to writing it. I'm an interested amateur in biology, so I know just enough to get myself in trouble. :) )

complete tangent

[malka]

What is your icon? I can tell that it's a light-skinned human joint, with straps (?) and bright-colored things (?) attached, but I can't tell if it's an elbow, a knee, or an armpit.

Re: complete tangent

[aquaeri]

It's my shoulder from directly above, my left arm heading in a downwards-left direction, my head would be upper right of the icon. The blue is an exercise top (the bit you can see is breast) with black shoulder straps. The red was accidental - I was wearing a pair of bright red exercise pants, and you can just see my heels sticking out, tiny by comparison. I'm standing on a lawn.

There are some other photos here that may help you make sense of it all.

Re: complete tangent

[malka]

Oh, I see now, thank you! I had been seeing it as the inside of a joint -- the outside of a shoulder makes much more visual sense.